1 00:00:03,770 --> 00:00:01,699 okay now for our interview with Garrett 2 00:00:05,539 --> 00:00:03,780 Graff I started by asking Graff whether 3 00:00:08,900 --> 00:00:05,549 he thinks people have already forgotten 4 00:00:10,669 --> 00:00:08,910 the lessons of 9/11 well so I think 5 00:00:12,950 --> 00:00:10,679 there are a couple of things that play 6 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:12,960 there I mean the first is simply you 7 00:00:18,349 --> 00:00:14,490 know a quarter of the US population 8 00:00:20,779 --> 00:00:18,359 today was either born after 9/11 or was 9 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:20,789 too young to have any memories of that 10 00:00:29,540 --> 00:00:24,689 day and that is you know something that 11 00:00:32,389 --> 00:00:29,550 we are beginning to see in our big way 12 00:00:36,380 --> 00:00:32,399 you know last year was the first year 13 00:00:38,780 --> 00:00:36,390 that you saw servicemen and women being 14 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:38,790 deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan to 15 00:00:44,119 --> 00:00:41,610 fight in a war that was older than they 16 00:00:47,990 --> 00:00:44,129 are you know last year it was the first 17 00:00:52,130 --> 00:00:48,000 time that new recruits to the New York 18 00:00:54,229 --> 00:00:52,140 Fire Department were enough or young 19 00:00:57,650 --> 00:00:54,239 enough is it the right way to have been 20 00:01:00,139 --> 00:00:57,660 born after 9/11 and you know this fall 21 00:01:02,750 --> 00:01:00,149 you will see a college class entering 22 00:01:05,090 --> 00:01:02,760 across the country that is almost 23 00:01:08,510 --> 00:01:05,100 entirely made up of people or and after 24 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:08,520 9/11 and so you know I think there is a 25 00:01:16,399 --> 00:01:14,130 very real question of how although the 26 00:01:20,330 --> 00:01:16,409 story of 9/11 and sort of remind people 27 00:01:22,609 --> 00:01:20,340 about what happened that day as we move 28 00:01:25,609 --> 00:01:22,619 to a generation that will live their 29 00:01:28,999 --> 00:01:25,619 entire lives in the world created by 30 00:01:32,090 --> 00:01:29,009 9/11 but will have no actual emotional 31 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:32,100 connection to the underlying events yeah 32 00:01:38,780 --> 00:01:34,530 there's really a question of what are 33 00:01:42,109 --> 00:01:38,790 the lessons of 9/11 because it certainly 34 00:01:45,770 --> 00:01:42,119 appears that in many ways we overreacted 35 00:01:47,660 --> 00:01:45,780 to 9/11 so on the one hand I just made 36 00:01:50,149 --> 00:01:47,670 the point that we need to never forget 37 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:50,159 what happened certainly because of the 38 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:52,770 victims and the first responders and so 39 00:01:59,330 --> 00:01:55,890 on and to be vigilant and recognize that 40 00:02:01,490 --> 00:01:59,340 there is this Muslim extremist terrorism 41 00:02:04,999 --> 00:02:01,500 out there and a terror network to be 42 00:02:07,399 --> 00:02:05,009 concerned about but when you look at how 43 00:02:11,510 --> 00:02:07,409 we responded it appears that in many 44 00:02:13,460 --> 00:02:11,520 ways as far as Wars go and perhaps even 45 00:02:17,090 --> 00:02:13,470 as far as a domestic secure 46 00:02:20,030 --> 00:02:17,100 has gone you know the militarization of 47 00:02:22,220 --> 00:02:20,040 our police etc that we perhaps 48 00:02:26,270 --> 00:02:22,230 overreacted what are your thoughts there 49 00:02:29,090 --> 00:02:26,280 yeah I think when you talk to our 50 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:29,100 terrorism experts you know what they all 51 00:02:33,640 --> 00:02:31,530 say is you know al Qaeda was more 52 00:02:37,610 --> 00:02:33,650 dangerous than we thought it was on 53 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:37,620 September 10 and not as dangerous as we 54 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:40,290 thought it was on September 12th and 55 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:48,410 that this heel of our response was 56 00:02:53,510 --> 00:02:51,930 probably not necessary but I mean I 57 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:53,520 think this was sort of an important part 58 00:03:01,550 --> 00:02:56,250 of the work that I wanted to do look and 59 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:01,560 telling this is when you look at the 60 00:03:09,470 --> 00:03:05,690 facts of 9/11 it makes it very hard to 61 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:09,480 understand the reaction that we had as a 62 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:12,410 country as a government as a military 63 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:15,090 because it just seemed so vastly out of 64 00:03:21,410 --> 00:03:18,450 scale and and so what you have to sort 65 00:03:25,190 --> 00:03:21,420 of recapture of 9/11 of the experience 66 00:03:29,949 --> 00:03:25,200 of 9/11 was the fear of what came next 67 00:03:33,410 --> 00:03:29,959 that it was the fear of what could come 68 00:03:35,540 --> 00:03:33,420 that drove so much of the u.s. 69 00:03:38,540 --> 00:03:35,550 decision-making you know on September 70 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:38,550 12th through that fall of 2001 through 71 00:03:45,620 --> 00:03:41,610 the invasion of Iraq yeah it really was 72 00:03:49,190 --> 00:03:45,630 a brilliant hate hating to use that word 73 00:03:52,130 --> 00:03:49,200 but a brilliant terrorist attack both in 74 00:03:55,550 --> 00:03:52,140 what they were able to do that day and 75 00:03:57,710 --> 00:03:55,560 the fear that they were able to instill 76 00:04:00,170 --> 00:03:57,720 because at the end of the day when you 77 00:04:01,310 --> 00:04:00,180 look at what happened I believe him 78 00:04:02,750 --> 00:04:01,320 you know we're going with the official 79 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:02,760 narrative there's conspiracy theories 80 00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:04,290 out there and and we'll touch on a 81 00:04:08,390 --> 00:04:06,480 little bit of that but based on the 82 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:08,400 official narrative that happened it 83 00:04:14,150 --> 00:04:10,970 really wasn't an extraordinarily 84 00:04:16,490 --> 00:04:14,160 difficult thing to pull off in 85 00:04:18,530 --> 00:04:16,500 retrospect considering the state of our 86 00:04:20,330 --> 00:04:18,540 security and our readiness obviously at 87 00:04:22,339 --> 00:04:20,340 that time you had to get these guys 88 00:04:24,740 --> 00:04:22,349 trained they had to hijack them and then 89 00:04:27,290 --> 00:04:24,750 they had to fly him into these into 90 00:04:34,719 --> 00:04:27,300 these buildings and 91 00:04:39,559 --> 00:04:34,729 that created mass chaos math mass 92 00:04:42,529 --> 00:04:39,569 carnage and mass ultimately fear exactly 93 00:04:47,659 --> 00:04:42,539 what they wanted to achieve yeah and I 94 00:04:51,730 --> 00:04:47,669 think that it was a very specific terror 95 00:04:54,649 --> 00:04:51,740 plot that played on vulnerabilities and 96 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:54,659 expectations that we as a society and 97 00:05:02,570 --> 00:04:57,690 its government as institutions had up 98 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:02,580 until that day you know hurt of again 99 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:04,530 retelling that history of 9/11 100 00:05:11,390 --> 00:05:07,050 remembering what happened that day that 101 00:05:16,399 --> 00:05:11,400 seems so foreign to us is the extent to 102 00:05:17,990 --> 00:05:16,409 which you know things like the hijackers 103 00:05:20,809 --> 00:05:18,000 were allowed to carry knives aboard the 104 00:05:22,670 --> 00:05:20,819 planes that day you know that the 105 00:05:25,129 --> 00:05:22,680 military's first response that air 106 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:25,139 traffic controls response was not 107 00:05:31,399 --> 00:05:27,930 necessarily to intercept the planes once 108 00:05:33,860 --> 00:05:31,409 they were hijacked but to you know give 109 00:05:36,499 --> 00:05:33,870 the hijackers what they wanted you know 110 00:05:38,420 --> 00:05:36,509 we have a long history of airplane 111 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:38,430 hijackings in the United States never 112 00:05:41,689 --> 00:05:41,130 had a plane actually been used as a 113 00:05:45,230 --> 00:05:41,699 missile 114 00:05:47,809 --> 00:05:45,240 until that day and so those are 115 00:05:50,930 --> 00:05:47,819 protocols and the response scenarios 116 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:50,940 that we had in place that day this did 117 00:05:57,170 --> 00:05:53,610 not account for what the terrorists were 118 00:05:59,809 --> 00:05:57,180 going to do and I think you know when I 119 00:06:03,709 --> 00:05:59,819 did the book when I sort of traced that 120 00:06:08,659 --> 00:06:03,719 day as it unfolded I think you see that 121 00:06:10,580 --> 00:06:08,669 innocence of America in those first 17 122 00:06:14,540 --> 00:06:10,590 minutes the time between the first 123 00:06:17,809 --> 00:06:14,550 attack and the second attacked 846 the 124 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:17,819 first attack - 903 the second attack 125 00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:21,690 into the South Tower and what you see 126 00:06:28,369 --> 00:06:25,710 that day is that during those 17 minutes 127 00:06:32,269 --> 00:06:28,379 sort of America collectively looked at 128 00:06:34,610 --> 00:06:32,279 that first attack in truck and said you 129 00:06:36,499 --> 00:06:34,620 know it's got to be a small plane the 130 00:06:38,540 --> 00:06:36,509 pilot was having a heart attack there 131 00:06:41,530 --> 00:06:38,550 was a mechanical problem air traffic 132 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:41,540 control is having a really bad day 133 00:06:48,070 --> 00:06:45,050 our minds collectively did not leap to 134 00:06:49,570 --> 00:06:48,080 terrorists and that President Bush got 135 00:06:51,490 --> 00:06:49,580 on the phone with condi rice his 136 00:06:53,830 --> 00:06:51,500 national security adviser and sort of 137 00:06:55,930 --> 00:06:53,840 both had a conversation ha 138 00:06:59,020 --> 00:06:55,940 that was weird and then they went on 139 00:07:00,880 --> 00:06:59,030 with their day Brian Gunderson the chief 140 00:07:04,870 --> 00:07:00,890 of staff to the House Majority Leader 141 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:04,880 talks about walking into his house 142 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:08,210 office that morning seeing the TV on in 143 00:07:13,630 --> 00:07:11,810 the reception room and he said that he 144 00:07:15,580 --> 00:07:13,640 thought it was going to be like a bad 145 00:07:16,270 --> 00:07:15,590 school shooting sort of the type of 146 00:07:19,420 --> 00:07:16,280 thing 147 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:19,430 that dominates national news but doesn't 148 00:07:25,450 --> 00:07:22,490 actually affect people are from the 149 00:07:28,270 --> 00:07:25,460 incident itself but then even people in 150 00:07:32,110 --> 00:07:28,280 New York were not they were sort of 151 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:32,120 puzzled and horrified by the attack but 152 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:34,370 went on about their day you know one of 153 00:07:40,420 --> 00:07:38,090 the most striking quotes IP in my book 154 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:40,430 research was the story that Peter 155 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:42,170 Johansson told he was one of the New 156 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:44,810 York Waterway ferry captain that morning 157 00:07:52,030 --> 00:07:48,170 of 9/11 and he talks about watching that 158 00:07:54,370 --> 00:07:52,040 first plane hit the North Tower as his 159 00:07:57,130 --> 00:07:54,380 ferry was coming across New York Harbor 160 00:07:58,720 --> 00:07:57,140 and that they pulled into Wall Street 161 00:08:01,200 --> 00:07:58,730 terminal you know just a couple of 162 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:01,210 blocks from the World Trade Center and 163 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:04,850 every single commuter on the boat gets 164 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:07,190 off and walks into lower Manhattan 165 00:08:13,990 --> 00:08:10,130 they literally walk off the boat through 166 00:08:16,420 --> 00:08:14,000 falling paper and debris from that first 167 00:08:19,030 --> 00:08:16,430 hour but that there was no one on the 168 00:08:20,620 --> 00:08:19,040 ferry who said you know this just sort 169 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:20,630 of seems like it's gonna be a weird day 170 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:22,370 I think I should go work from home for 171 00:08:28,780 --> 00:08:24,370 the rest of the day you know America 172 00:08:30,940 --> 00:08:28,790 reacted to that first attack thinking it 173 00:08:32,710 --> 00:08:30,950 was just something weird that had 174 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:32,720 happened and it was not until that 175 00:08:37,680 --> 00:08:36,169 second attack at 9:03 that we began to 176 00:08:41,260 --> 00:08:37,690 realize we were under attack 177 00:08:44,740 --> 00:08:41,270 what was the intelligence prior to 9/11 178 00:08:52,270 --> 00:08:44,750 about the potential of hijackers flying 179 00:08:55,380 --> 00:08:52,280 planes into significant targets because 180 00:08:58,639 --> 00:08:55,390 the idea that such a plot 181 00:09:04,650 --> 00:08:58,649 was possible had certainly been 182 00:09:07,610 --> 00:09:04,660 discussed and and and plotted and there 183 00:09:10,319 --> 00:09:07,620 had actually even bid response scenarios 184 00:09:12,060 --> 00:09:10,329 at places like the Pentagon to what 185 00:09:15,990 --> 00:09:12,070 might happen if a plane was flown in 186 00:09:18,990 --> 00:09:16,000 building you know this was not a totally 187 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:19,000 out of the idea I mean it had literally 188 00:09:25,860 --> 00:09:21,970 been you know part of the plot of the 189 00:09:30,509 --> 00:09:25,870 Tom Clancy novel before them where a 190 00:09:32,910 --> 00:09:30,519 disgruntled pilot flew a plane into the 191 00:09:35,490 --> 00:09:32,920 US Capitol in the midst of a 192 00:09:39,449 --> 00:09:35,500 presidential State of the Union style 193 00:09:41,370 --> 00:09:39,459 addressed and you know that is out Jack 194 00:09:43,069 --> 00:09:41,380 Ryan and one of the competency books 195 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:43,079 become President of the United States 196 00:09:47,190 --> 00:09:45,490 not to mention not to mention by the way 197 00:09:53,730 --> 00:09:47,200 that al Qaeda is known for suicide 198 00:10:00,800 --> 00:09:53,740 bombings and had plotted large-scale 199 00:10:03,870 --> 00:10:00,810 attacks against planes that al Qaeda had 200 00:10:08,790 --> 00:10:03,880 aimed again to sort of hijack and 201 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:08,800 explode airliners in the late 1990s 202 00:10:14,670 --> 00:10:11,410 notice the Bojinka plot so how do you 203 00:10:18,060 --> 00:10:14,680 explain then the reaction of the the 204 00:10:21,689 --> 00:10:18,070 people at the helm that day that these 205 00:10:23,370 --> 00:10:21,699 hijackings were not likely to result in 206 00:10:25,620 --> 00:10:23,380 them flying into buildings that they're 207 00:10:28,710 --> 00:10:25,630 gonna be more of a traditional hijacking 208 00:10:30,030 --> 00:10:28,720 for money or extortion yeah I mean one 209 00:10:32,490 --> 00:10:30,040 of the things is you know in those 210 00:10:35,730 --> 00:10:32,500 initial minutes there was there was not 211 00:10:38,730 --> 00:10:35,740 clarity that it was an al Qaeda plot you 212 00:10:41,610 --> 00:10:38,740 know hijackings have a long history 213 00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:41,620 inside the United States mean we sort of 214 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:44,230 forget now that actually hijackings were 215 00:10:49,170 --> 00:10:47,410 quite common in the 1960s and 1970s in 216 00:10:51,180 --> 00:10:49,180 the 1970s 217 00:10:53,670 --> 00:10:51,190 you know you early nineteen seventies 218 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:53,680 you have a hijacking almost every week 219 00:10:57,800 --> 00:10:55,690 of a commercial airliner inside the 220 00:11:00,720 --> 00:10:57,810 United States so this is something that 221 00:11:02,490 --> 00:11:00,730 you know we have a lot of history with 222 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:02,500 that the air traffic controllers that 223 00:11:07,900 --> 00:11:06,250 they had worked hijackings before and 224 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:07,910 that they had all ended peaceful 225 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:10,490 and they all had ended with the aircraft 226 00:11:17,380 --> 00:11:14,090 intact on the ground and there and so 227 00:11:23,710 --> 00:11:17,390 you know this was a scenario that really 228 00:11:25,990 --> 00:11:23,720 just whelmed response and unfolded more 229 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:26,000 quickly than anything that people could 230 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:29,810 sort of get their heads around so with 231 00:11:37,570 --> 00:11:34,210 hindsight there should have been more 232 00:11:40,210 --> 00:11:37,580 education and awareness of this 233 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:40,220 possibility of the people that were 234 00:11:44,830 --> 00:11:42,890 working in the various positions the the 235 00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:44,840 the the the first responders from an air 236 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:49,160 traffic standpoint potentially but I'm 237 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:51,650 not actually sure that you know this was 238 00:11:58,020 --> 00:11:55,130 this was sort of a systemic failure of 239 00:12:02,110 --> 00:11:58,030 imagination you know that that morning 240 00:12:04,540 --> 00:12:02,120 we didn't have armed aircraft on the 241 00:12:07,210 --> 00:12:04,550 ground across the country that would 242 00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:07,220 have been able to intercept that for the 243 00:12:11,950 --> 00:12:08,990 most part you know in the entire country 244 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:11,960 there were only eight alert aircraft 245 00:12:20,110 --> 00:12:14,450 sitting armed on par max around the 246 00:12:23,710 --> 00:12:20,120 country do in Massachusetts - in the 247 00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:23,720 northwest - in the southern the United 248 00:12:30,850 --> 00:12:27,230 States that did drug interdiction and - 249 00:12:33,970 --> 00:12:30,860 at Langley Air Force Base in outside of 250 00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,980 washing and so you know that is 251 00:12:37,810 --> 00:12:35,360 obviously one thing that has 252 00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:37,820 dramatically changed but those fighters 253 00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:41,360 that day primarily geared towards 254 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:46,160 intercepting still in 2001 years for 255 00:12:51,940 --> 00:12:49,490 intercepting incoming Russian aircraft 256 00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:51,950 you know the Langley aircraft in 257 00:12:56,140 --> 00:12:54,560 Virginia when they were scrambled off 258 00:12:59,200 --> 00:12:56,150 the ground on the morning of 9/11 they 259 00:13:02,500 --> 00:12:59,210 weren't initially told what they were 260 00:13:05,530 --> 00:13:02,510 responding to and so they took off as 261 00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:05,540 per their prior protocols and flew out 262 00:13:11,830 --> 00:13:08,240 towards the Atlantic looking to 263 00:13:13,750 --> 00:13:11,840 intercept an incoming plane before they 264 00:13:15,930 --> 00:13:13,760 were told actually that you know the 265 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:15,940 threat was already over the capital 266 00:13:21,890 --> 00:13:19,010 let's talk about what the original plan 267 00:13:25,990 --> 00:13:21,900 of the terrorists was 268 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:26,000 first of all there was there was 20 269 00:13:34,970 --> 00:13:29,690 hijackers but only 19 showed up right 270 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:34,980 yes so it's a little bit complicated I'm 271 00:13:41,930 --> 00:13:36,450 not sure we sort of still fully 272 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:41,940 understand the 20th hijacker was turned 273 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:46,650 away by immigration authorities and he 274 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:48,210 tried to enter the United States in the 275 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:50,610 summer of 2001 I think it was down and 276 00:13:57,130 --> 00:13:53,970 flora member correctly but he was turned 277 00:14:01,130 --> 00:13:57,140 away and then you had the role of 278 00:14:03,380 --> 00:14:01,140 Zacharias loose alley in Minnesota who 279 00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:03,390 was one of the only people that ever 280 00:14:09,740 --> 00:14:06,260 been convicted of being a co-conspirator 281 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:09,750 of 9/11 ci sorry I I sort of assumed 282 00:14:17,510 --> 00:14:11,250 that that was the so-called 20th 283 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:17,520 hijacker no no the original 20th 284 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:19,650 hijacker was away if I remember 285 00:14:31,910 --> 00:14:28,110 correctly and hijacker and why didn't he 286 00:14:32,900 --> 00:14:31,920 why didn't he participate that day I he 287 00:14:36,740 --> 00:14:32,910 was already under arrest 288 00:14:37,940 --> 00:14:36,750 he had already been caught by the I 289 00:14:40,580 --> 00:14:37,950 gotcha 290 00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:40,590 so on the day of they weren't expecting 291 00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:44,160 a 20th guy it was five guys for three of 292 00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:47,120 the planes four for the other one and 293 00:14:52,940 --> 00:14:49,620 what is it what is your understanding as 294 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:52,950 to what their objective was in other 295 00:15:02,050 --> 00:14:55,050 words if everything went exactly to 296 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:04,520 effectively they carried out you know 297 00:15:16,370 --> 00:15:12,510 three of their four attacks are as we 298 00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:16,380 know the you know the new planes 299 00:15:21,110 --> 00:15:17,760 instruct the World Trade Center were 300 00:15:25,220 --> 00:15:21,120 intended to go there and the plane that 301 00:15:26,050 --> 00:15:25,230 hit the Pentagon was intended to go to 302 00:15:29,570 --> 00:15:26,060 the Pentagon 303 00:15:30,970 --> 00:15:29,580 there is still an open question and I 304 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:30,980 don't know whether we will 305 00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:34,250 no or absolute sure now they're the 306 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:36,350 ultimate destination of the United 307 00:15:42,819 --> 00:15:40,850 flight 93 was supposed to be before the 308 00:15:46,090 --> 00:15:42,829 hijackers crashed it after the 309 00:15:50,829 --> 00:15:46,100 passengers fought back in size over 310 00:15:53,290 --> 00:15:50,839 Pennsylvania the speculation is that it 311 00:15:57,370 --> 00:15:53,300 would have been aimed for either the 312 00:15:59,800 --> 00:15:57,380 White House or the Capitol although that 313 00:16:03,610 --> 00:15:59,810 sort of opinions are split on which of 314 00:16:06,910 --> 00:16:03,620 those was the most likely target my 315 00:16:09,460 --> 00:16:06,920 personal opinion and it is you know not 316 00:16:13,150 --> 00:16:09,470 informed by any knowledge not available 317 00:16:16,150 --> 00:16:13,160 to others is that it was likely headed 318 00:16:20,829 --> 00:16:16,160 to the Capitol which is a much larger 319 00:16:23,319 --> 00:16:20,839 and easier target to hit from the air at 320 00:16:27,129 --> 00:16:23,329 500 miles an hour the the White House is 321 00:16:29,439 --> 00:16:27,139 pretty hemmed in by other buildings and 322 00:16:32,350 --> 00:16:29,449 would have only been approachable from a 323 00:16:33,939 --> 00:16:32,360 single angle whereas you know you could 324 00:16:36,250 --> 00:16:33,949 have come at the Capitol from any number 325 00:16:39,879 --> 00:16:36,260 of angles some people point out that 326 00:16:42,490 --> 00:16:39,889 this would take highly skilled pilots in 327 00:16:44,889 --> 00:16:42,500 order to guide it directly into the 328 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:44,899 Pentagon or into the Twin Towers for 329 00:16:49,870 --> 00:16:46,970 that matter what what do you know about 330 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:49,880 how skilled these guys were and what 331 00:16:54,069 --> 00:16:51,290 level skill would require to pull off 332 00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:54,079 what they did certainly they were 333 00:17:00,280 --> 00:16:57,680 skilled enough to do what they did I'm 334 00:17:06,329 --> 00:17:00,290 not a pilot so I can't speak to the 335 00:17:09,909 --> 00:17:06,339 level of laxity of their their attack or 336 00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:09,919 you know obviously they they had been 337 00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:12,559 training sufficient you lop what they 338 00:17:18,370 --> 00:17:14,770 did mm-hm 339 00:17:20,860 --> 00:17:18,380 what what kind of in retrospect is the 340 00:17:23,890 --> 00:17:20,870 one thing that you think could have been 341 00:17:25,870 --> 00:17:23,900 done to prevent this as you know you 342 00:17:27,669 --> 00:17:25,880 look right I mean reading your book and 343 00:17:29,770 --> 00:17:27,679 thinking about it also watching the 344 00:17:31,450 --> 00:17:29,780 movie last night one thing that comes to 345 00:17:35,950 --> 00:17:31,460 my mind is that it did take them a while 346 00:17:37,810 --> 00:17:35,960 to decide to ground all planes it I 347 00:17:39,850 --> 00:17:37,820 believe that the second plane had 348 00:17:42,940 --> 00:17:39,860 already hit the World Trade Center 349 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:42,950 while United 93 still on the ground it 350 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:44,690 didn't take off until 351 00:17:48,669 --> 00:17:46,610 a few minutes after that second one hit 352 00:17:50,919 --> 00:17:48,679 the tower you would have thought that 353 00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:50,929 when the second one hits there should 354 00:17:57,279 --> 00:17:54,320 been orders to ground all planes I think 355 00:18:03,249 --> 00:17:57,289 the the biggest missed opportunity of 356 00:18:06,340 --> 00:18:03,259 that the attack was actually over the 357 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:06,350 course of that summer and where you had 358 00:18:12,970 --> 00:18:08,330 a failure of communication between the 359 00:18:17,169 --> 00:18:12,980 CIA and the FBI and the CIA was aware 360 00:18:18,909 --> 00:18:17,179 that two of the hijackers although 361 00:18:20,470 --> 00:18:18,919 obviously they didn't know that they 362 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:20,480 were hijackers they just knew that they 363 00:18:26,799 --> 00:18:22,970 were suspects like al-qaeda Khalid 364 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:26,809 al-mihdhar and Allah al Azmi were inside 365 00:18:33,220 --> 00:18:29,690 in the United States that summer and 366 00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:33,230 that was information that the CIA failed 367 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:38,629 to tell the FBI and that to be is the 368 00:18:46,330 --> 00:18:43,129 thing that sort of most clearly had that 369 00:18:49,889 --> 00:18:46,340 information had been communicated to the 370 00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:49,899 FBI could have altered the trajectory of 371 00:18:57,039 --> 00:18:54,769 the attacks of 9/11 you know I think I 372 00:19:01,720 --> 00:18:57,049 think we miss understand a little bit 373 00:19:05,230 --> 00:19:01,730 what interdicting the 9/11 plot would 374 00:19:07,860 --> 00:19:05,240 have meant you know I think there's sort 375 00:19:11,310 --> 00:19:07,870 of this idea in the popular imagination 376 00:19:14,409 --> 00:19:11,320 that's stopping the 9/11 plot you know 377 00:19:19,269 --> 00:19:14,419 would have been you know SWAT teams 378 00:19:21,879 --> 00:19:19,279 kicking in you know 19 doors on the 379 00:19:24,759 --> 00:19:21,889 morning of September 10th and arresting 380 00:19:25,659 --> 00:19:24,769 all the hijackers and everything goes on 381 00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:25,669 about their day 382 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:29,120 I think the much more likely scenario of 383 00:19:33,580 --> 00:19:31,250 what would have happened if we had been 384 00:19:35,919 --> 00:19:33,590 able to successfully disrupt that pot is 385 00:19:39,399 --> 00:19:35,929 that we wouldn't have necessarily ever 386 00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:39,409 known that the 9/11 plot was under way 387 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:42,190 that's sort of what we could have done 388 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:45,049 was you know take a couple of these 389 00:19:51,519 --> 00:19:49,730 terrorists off the board and you know we 390 00:19:54,190 --> 00:19:51,529 might not have ever actually understood 391 00:19:56,930 --> 00:19:54,200 what the plot was that they had been 392 00:19:59,000 --> 00:19:56,940 doing and aiming for 393 00:20:02,480 --> 00:19:59,010 and you know they might very well have 394 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:02,490 carried out the plot at a leader you 395 00:20:08,510 --> 00:20:04,890 know that those security vulnerabilities 396 00:20:10,850 --> 00:20:08,520 might well have persisted and allowed 397 00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:10,860 them to reconstitute and do the attack 398 00:20:18,590 --> 00:20:14,640 you know let's say in 2002 which is 399 00:20:21,290 --> 00:20:18,600 effectively exactly what you saw happen 400 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:21,300 with the bombing of the USS Cole you 401 00:20:29,710 --> 00:20:24,210 know the original al-qaida plot had been 402 00:20:34,730 --> 00:20:29,720 to attacked the USS Fitzgerald's in in 403 00:20:40,220 --> 00:20:34,740 2000 as part of the Millennium plot and 404 00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:40,230 and blow up the USS with barrels during 405 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:42,990 a port visit there months and months 406 00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:46,710 earlier but this skill that al-qaeda had 407 00:20:53,060 --> 00:20:49,260 loaded the bomb onto was overloaded and 408 00:20:55,130 --> 00:20:53,070 it sank and the USS Fitzgerald you know 409 00:20:56,930 --> 00:20:55,140 went on without ever realizing it had 410 00:20:59,690 --> 00:20:56,940 been the target of a bomb plot and we 411 00:21:02,810 --> 00:20:59,700 had no idea that this plot was underway 412 00:21:05,860 --> 00:21:02,820 until al Khaimah sort of reconstituted 413 00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:05,870 itself and successfully attacked all 414 00:21:10,940 --> 00:21:09,390 later in 2000 so you're saying there 415 00:21:14,660 --> 00:21:10,950 theoretically could have been a 416 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:14,670 temporary disruption because FBI could 417 00:21:20,630 --> 00:21:18,570 have detained a few of these hijackers 418 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:20,640 that were in the middle of their 419 00:21:27,070 --> 00:21:25,110 training effectively yes you know we 420 00:21:29,660 --> 00:21:27,080 might have been able to sort of 421 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:29,670 disrupted this plot at the training 422 00:21:35,420 --> 00:21:33,330 stage or the planning stage you know 423 00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:35,430 without ever necessarily understanding 424 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:38,220 what we were does that give air to 425 00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:40,530 conspiracy theorists who say that oh us 426 00:21:47,420 --> 00:21:41,670 knew this was going to happen and 427 00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:47,430 allowed it to happen no sort of a 428 00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:53,310 variety of reasons one of which is you 429 00:21:58,700 --> 00:21:56,910 know it was actually a very complicated 430 00:22:03,350 --> 00:21:58,710 situation that was unfolding between the 431 00:22:08,660 --> 00:22:03,360 FBI and the CIA in the spring in summer 432 00:22:11,030 --> 00:22:08,670 of 2001 the CIA did not necessarily have 433 00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:11,040 great reason but they had reason 434 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:13,980 or why they didn't share the information 435 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:17,090 they should have shared with the FBI 436 00:22:22,580 --> 00:22:19,770 there were some legal structures in 437 00:22:25,460 --> 00:22:22,590 place at the time that the CIA thought 438 00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:25,470 it made difficult in order to share 439 00:22:30,980 --> 00:22:28,710 intelligence directly with the FBI and 440 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:30,990 then sort of just more broadly I put 441 00:22:37,210 --> 00:22:34,050 very very little weight on conspiracy 442 00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:37,220 theories involving the US government 443 00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:41,280 because it's someone who has covered the 444 00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:44,070 US government and intelligence and 445 00:22:50,290 --> 00:22:45,360 national security and federal law 446 00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:50,300 enforcement for 15 years 447 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:53,100 conspiracies serious conspiracy theories 448 00:23:00,290 --> 00:22:57,210 presuppose a level of confidence that is 449 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:00,300 not necessarily on display in the 450 00:23:02,990 --> 00:23:01,890 day-to-day activities of the US 451 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:03,000 government 452 00:23:08,990 --> 00:23:05,010 that makes it very hard for me to 453 00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:09,000 imagine that you would ever be able to 454 00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:11,460 carry out a conspiracy theory 455 00:23:16,730 --> 00:23:15,150 successfully and then keep it quiet for 456 00:23:17,410 --> 00:23:16,740 as long as it would need to be kept 457 00:23:19,970 --> 00:23:17,420 quiet 458 00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:19,980 well we think along the same lines when 459 00:23:24,890 --> 00:23:23,640 it comes to that I never it's impossible 460 00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:24,900 to overestimate government incompetence 461 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:27,590 we've been covering the Jeffrey Epstein 462 00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:31,290 death and there's another example of 463 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:33,540 prison incompetence leading to a death 464 00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:36,330 as opposed to a conspiracy which many 465 00:23:42,230 --> 00:23:40,140 people believe in yeah I think you're 466 00:23:43,910 --> 00:23:42,240 absolutely right and you know and I 467 00:23:47,180 --> 00:23:43,920 think that bears true for the sort of 468 00:23:49,340 --> 00:23:47,190 full range of the 9/11 conspiracy 469 00:23:52,370 --> 00:23:49,350 theories you know whether you are 470 00:23:54,980 --> 00:23:52,380 talking about you know the US government 471 00:23:58,570 --> 00:23:54,990 having foreknowledge or the idea that 472 00:24:01,010 --> 00:23:58,580 has been sort of on time and again that 473 00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:01,020 you know the twin towers were brought 474 00:24:06,650 --> 00:24:04,830 down by internal demolition let's state 475 00:24:09,770 --> 00:24:06,660 let's cover that one real quick so I did 476 00:24:12,590 --> 00:24:09,780 want to talk about the towers first of 477 00:24:16,510 --> 00:24:12,600 all how many towers were there 478 00:24:21,789 --> 00:24:16,520 it wasn't like eight seven or eight yeah 479 00:24:24,820 --> 00:24:21,799 World Trade Center complex involved 480 00:24:26,529 --> 00:24:24,830 you know a number of building sort of 481 00:24:28,659 --> 00:24:26,539 many more than we sort of typically 482 00:24:30,609 --> 00:24:28,669 think of you have but the two main 483 00:24:33,070 --> 00:24:30,619 towers World Trade Center One World 484 00:24:35,529 --> 00:24:33,080 Trade Center two we have the Marriott 485 00:24:38,289 --> 00:24:35,539 Hotel which was sandwiched between them 486 00:24:40,509 --> 00:24:38,299 48 story Marriott hotel and then you had 487 00:24:42,909 --> 00:24:40,519 other World Trade Center buildings that 488 00:24:45,369 --> 00:24:42,919 were part of that complex you know 489 00:24:46,779 --> 00:24:45,379 building 3 building or building 5 right 490 00:24:52,499 --> 00:24:46,789 up to building 7 491 00:24:58,139 --> 00:24:52,509 so total of 7 ended all 7 come down no 492 00:25:01,149 --> 00:24:58,149 all of them involved serious damage 493 00:25:07,109 --> 00:25:01,159 Marriott Hotel was effectively 494 00:25:14,979 --> 00:25:11,109 sort of second largest tower collapse at 495 00:25:19,899 --> 00:25:14,989 the end of the day after you know a day 496 00:25:23,859 --> 00:25:19,909 of unsustained and were completely 497 00:25:26,229 --> 00:25:23,869 sustained unpadded fire tower Tower 7 498 00:25:29,470 --> 00:25:26,239 you're talking about sticking with the 499 00:25:31,239 --> 00:25:29,480 Marriott because I really had had lost I 500 00:25:36,099 --> 00:25:31,249 had forgotten about the Marriott till I 501 00:25:41,590 --> 00:25:36,109 read your book so did people die inside 502 00:25:43,930 --> 00:25:41,600 the Marriott yes and Marriott was you 503 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:43,940 know it was a pretty building that 504 00:25:51,609 --> 00:25:47,330 basically bore the brunt of both Tower 1 505 00:25:53,409 --> 00:25:51,619 and power 2 falling on top of it and so 506 00:25:55,299 --> 00:25:53,419 there were some people who survived who 507 00:25:58,989 --> 00:25:55,309 were inside of it and my book follows 508 00:26:00,820 --> 00:25:58,999 some of them but there were certainly 509 00:26:02,979 --> 00:26:00,830 many casualties in and around the 510 00:26:06,029 --> 00:26:02,989 Marriott develop it was being evacuated 511 00:26:12,460 --> 00:26:06,039 I presume but whoever didn't evacuate 512 00:26:18,009 --> 00:26:12,470 yes first responders were building the 513 00:26:21,220 --> 00:26:18,019 evacuation interesting leave in your 514 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:21,230 book correct me if I'm wrong in the 515 00:26:24,729 --> 00:26:23,090 South Tower the North Tower is the first 516 00:26:27,909 --> 00:26:24,739 one to go down first when to be hit 517 00:26:31,149 --> 00:26:27,919 right and go down the North Tower was 518 00:26:33,549 --> 00:26:31,159 the first to be hit the South Tower was 519 00:26:34,470 --> 00:26:33,559 the first to come down okay I had 520 00:26:37,410 --> 00:26:34,480 forgotten that 521 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:37,420 but after the after the North Tower was 522 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:40,450 hit specifically there was announcements 523 00:26:47,070 --> 00:26:42,820 in the South Tower were fine do not 524 00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:47,080 evacuate yes and that is that's another 525 00:26:52,380 --> 00:26:49,390 one of those moments that sort of really 526 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:52,390 makes clear just how different the 527 00:26:59,070 --> 00:26:56,770 American psyche was on that day you know 528 00:27:02,400 --> 00:26:59,080 that people sort of literally sat at 529 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:02,410 their desks in power to watch that first 530 00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:05,410 crash into the North Tower from their 531 00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:08,080 desks and then remained at their desks 532 00:27:13,650 --> 00:27:11,500 and some of them actually went some of 533 00:27:15,420 --> 00:27:13,660 them began to evacuate the Port 534 00:27:17,130 --> 00:27:15,430 Authority came on the building live in 535 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:17,140 that public announcement system and 536 00:27:22,260 --> 00:27:21,250 turned around and said the incident has 537 00:27:24,270 --> 00:27:22,270 been contained 538 00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:24,280 the North Tower please feel free to 539 00:27:31,260 --> 00:27:27,180 return to your desks yeah incredible 540 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:31,270 so there's experts on both sides of this 541 00:27:39,390 --> 00:27:34,330 I believe but tell me what you know 542 00:27:41,340 --> 00:27:39,400 about the experts saying that yes a 747 543 00:27:43,370 --> 00:27:41,350 can cause one of these towers to 544 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:43,380 collapse you do not need additional 545 00:27:57,450 --> 00:27:51,850 explosives for that very well proven 546 00:28:01,830 --> 00:27:57,460 over the engineering reports done by 547 00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:01,840 NIST and others about this but what you 548 00:28:09,780 --> 00:28:04,720 basically had was a was less the impact 549 00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:09,790 of the planes and more the burning jet 550 00:28:16,980 --> 00:28:14,200 fuel that melted the metal that 551 00:28:19,350 --> 00:28:16,990 literally held up the World Trade Center 552 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:19,360 and so from there once that metal was 553 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:21,730 softened and melted the building 554 00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:23,610 basically began to collapse on itself 555 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:26,710 but there are experts to the contrary 556 00:28:31,980 --> 00:28:29,410 who say no it's not possible 557 00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:31,990 there are no experts who are respected 558 00:28:38,610 --> 00:28:35,320 on the other side there there there is 559 00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:38,620 no plausible explanation where the 560 00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:41,620 buildings coming down other than the 561 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:44,710 crash and what about tower 7 what's the 562 00:28:47,910 --> 00:28:46,570 explanation for how that went down even 563 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:47,920 though it wasn't impacted 564 00:28:55,980 --> 00:28:52,210 rectly by a plane I it was impacted by 565 00:28:59,190 --> 00:28:55,990 the falling debris and because it's much 566 00:29:02,280 --> 00:28:59,200 lower region fires yeah so it's the the 567 00:29:07,250 --> 00:29:02,290 towers are 110 stories approximately 568 00:29:10,650 --> 00:29:07,260 whereas tower seven was uh he was in the 569 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:10,660 exact number but you know have to have 570 00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:14,170 to serve so theoretically debris from 571 00:29:19,260 --> 00:29:15,910 that from the Twin Towers is falling on 572 00:29:21,030 --> 00:29:19,270 top of that correct and ultimately the 573 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:21,040 weight of that brings it down or were 574 00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:23,530 there fires that happen inside yeah so 575 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:24,880 that basically what ends up happening 576 00:29:31,620 --> 00:29:29,410 over the day is those fires the fires 577 00:29:34,170 --> 00:29:31,630 that start from the debris that starts 578 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:34,180 from the fires coming down from tower 579 00:29:41,550 --> 00:29:38,490 one in power to earn unrestricted and 580 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:41,560 through the course of that entire day 581 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:48,250 and the you know the FDNY the New York 582 00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:50,050 Fire Department they they made a 583 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:53,710 conscious decision to not fight that 584 00:29:59,160 --> 00:29:55,930 higher both because of the risk to their 585 00:30:02,610 --> 00:29:59,170 personnel but then also due to you know 586 00:30:05,610 --> 00:30:02,620 the overwhelming disaster that had 587 00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:05,620 already befallen the city with the 588 00:30:10,620 --> 00:30:07,420 collapse of power one in power too but 589 00:30:12,570 --> 00:30:10,630 they didn't want it already lost 343 590 00:30:15,300 --> 00:30:12,580 firefighters that day and didn't want to 591 00:30:18,330 --> 00:30:15,310 lose any more is that ultimately the 592 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:18,340 total number that were lost of the 593 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:20,890 firefighters yes and then there were 594 00:30:27,570 --> 00:30:24,690 about a hundred other first responders 595 00:30:31,980 --> 00:30:27,580 who were killed Port Authority police 596 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:31,990 New York City police NYPD Secret Service 597 00:30:39,930 --> 00:30:35,890 FBI Fire Marshal's other personnel like 598 00:30:44,370 --> 00:30:39,940 that yeah and the hero was so many of 599 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:44,380 them that probably knew they were not 600 00:30:51,180 --> 00:30:45,730 going to survive and still went into 601 00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:51,190 that building yeah you know I quote some 602 00:30:57,150 --> 00:30:55,120 of the FDNY leaders the ones who 603 00:30:59,340 --> 00:30:57,160 survived by they talking about that 604 00:31:01,200 --> 00:30:59,350 decision 605 00:31:03,150 --> 00:31:01,210 and the bravery of the firefighters who 606 00:31:07,159 --> 00:31:03,160 were going up even as people were coming 607 00:31:11,130 --> 00:31:07,169 down and they talked about sort of how 608 00:31:16,169 --> 00:31:11,140 what their their rescue personnel did 609 00:31:18,539 --> 00:31:16,179 was they provided hope craft meaning 610 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:18,549 remember there were about 1100 people 611 00:31:26,690 --> 00:31:22,570 who survived the attack but were trapped 612 00:31:30,990 --> 00:31:26,700 above the impact zone and that you know 613 00:31:33,810 --> 00:31:31,000 those most of them did not realize that 614 00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:33,820 their lives were ultimately at risk but 615 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:36,580 you know that the towers would fall and 616 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:40,450 so the your firefighters who were ending 617 00:31:44,580 --> 00:31:42,850 up to save them you know thought that 618 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:44,590 they had an opportunity to actually 619 00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:49,090 rescue them do we know whether bin Laden 620 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:52,950 himself expected the towers to fall I 621 00:32:01,669 --> 00:31:57,610 think the consensus is that they did 622 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:01,679 that al Qaeda did not understand that 623 00:32:12,570 --> 00:32:09,010 the buildings would come down that they 624 00:32:15,779 --> 00:32:12,580 certainly understood that by choosing 625 00:32:19,380 --> 00:32:15,789 long distance transcontinental flights 626 00:32:21,510 --> 00:32:19,390 they were maximizing the exclusive 627 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:21,520 capabilities of the planes that they 628 00:32:30,690 --> 00:32:26,130 were hijacking but that they were not 629 00:32:33,990 --> 00:32:30,700 they were not necessarily gambling on 630 00:32:36,060 --> 00:32:34,000 the towers coming down yeah I mean even 631 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:36,070 experts probably if you had consulted 632 00:32:42,270 --> 00:32:38,890 them may not have necessarily known that 633 00:32:44,460 --> 00:32:42,280 until it actually happens right and you 634 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:44,470 know for much of the initial response 635 00:32:53,159 --> 00:32:49,210 there the fire department's expectation 636 00:32:56,460 --> 00:32:53,169 was that sort of basically the buildings 637 00:32:58,140 --> 00:32:56,470 would be a loss above the impact that 638 00:33:00,990 --> 00:32:58,150 they wouldn't necessarily be able to put 639 00:33:04,399 --> 00:33:01,000 the fires out whether the fires would 640 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:04,409 sort of burn their way to the top and 641 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:06,970 destroy the tops of the World Trade 642 00:33:11,850 --> 00:33:10,330 Center but you know it was not until I'm 643 00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:11,860 you know late in the night 644 00:33:19,919 --> 00:33:16,110 our that morning I really do understand 645 00:33:22,710 --> 00:33:19,929 that the buildings themselves now yeah 646 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:22,720 and that that adds to the chaos on the 647 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:25,240 street because first everybody thinks 648 00:33:29,490 --> 00:33:27,490 it's a small plane even when they've 649 00:33:32,580 --> 00:33:29,500 there's a second plane and even perhaps 650 00:33:34,710 --> 00:33:32,590 when people realized that they were jets 651 00:33:36,509 --> 00:33:34,720 that had flown into them to your point 652 00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:36,519 nobody is expecting these buildings to 653 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:41,230 come down did do they were but I guess 654 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:43,570 they were evacuating the area though or 655 00:33:48,899 --> 00:33:45,450 were people just leaving on their own 656 00:33:52,490 --> 00:33:48,909 both we're very actively evacuating the 657 00:33:54,690 --> 00:33:52,500 buildings even below the impact zones 658 00:33:56,490 --> 00:33:54,700 but how about the area around the 659 00:34:00,180 --> 00:33:56,500 buildings consider yeah and then 660 00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:00,190 evacuating the buildings and other areas 661 00:34:08,070 --> 00:34:06,190 around them so a friend of mine who 662 00:34:09,270 --> 00:34:08,080 would have been a great interview for 663 00:34:09,930 --> 00:34:09,280 your book even though you hit you have 664 00:34:12,659 --> 00:34:09,940 plenty of them 665 00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:12,669 you didn't need more but I just vividly 666 00:34:17,550 --> 00:34:14,470 remember his story because he was 667 00:34:20,730 --> 00:34:17,560 working a few blocks away from it and to 668 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:20,740 just talk about the chaos and you know 669 00:34:25,649 --> 00:34:23,530 on the one hand everybody underestimated 670 00:34:27,240 --> 00:34:25,659 the attack at the outset as you point 671 00:34:29,369 --> 00:34:27,250 out they didn't know nobody's thinking 672 00:34:33,379 --> 00:34:29,379 terror they're thinking some idiot flew 673 00:34:37,310 --> 00:34:33,389 a small plane into the building but then 674 00:34:39,869 --> 00:34:37,320 it ended up being people ultimately over 675 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:39,879 stating what they thought it was that 676 00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:43,210 basically New York was under attack that 677 00:34:48,690 --> 00:34:46,480 this was war and it wasn't just two 678 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:48,700 planes that had flown in there was 679 00:34:54,180 --> 00:34:51,010 additional attacks because they're 680 00:34:56,700 --> 00:34:54,190 hearing one explosion after another 681 00:34:59,099 --> 00:34:56,710 there's one plane that go hits there's 682 00:35:01,260 --> 00:34:59,109 another plane there's a tower that goes 683 00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:01,270 down there's another tower that goes 684 00:35:06,810 --> 00:35:03,040 down there's a third tower that goes 685 00:35:09,630 --> 00:35:06,820 down and the absolute utter chaos and 686 00:35:12,599 --> 00:35:09,640 fear that was going on for people who 687 00:35:14,430 --> 00:35:12,609 were in Manhattan at the time that just 688 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:14,440 assumed that we were under some type of 689 00:35:26,290 --> 00:35:24,100 I mean there you know there was fear 690 00:35:30,310 --> 00:35:26,300 when the first fighter planes got over 691 00:35:33,070 --> 00:35:30,320 New York City I quote people in the book 692 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:33,080 talking about how they didn't 693 00:35:38,470 --> 00:35:34,610 necessarily think that those fighter 694 00:35:40,870 --> 00:35:38,480 planes belong to us you know the part of 695 00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:40,880 an ongoing attack one of the most 696 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:44,870 confusing aspects of the day after the 697 00:35:51,790 --> 00:35:49,130 towers collapse for the first responders 698 00:35:56,310 --> 00:35:51,800 at you know what we now call Ground Zero 699 00:36:00,040 --> 00:35:56,320 the World Trade Center site is the 700 00:36:03,340 --> 00:36:00,050 Secret Service field office that was in 701 00:36:06,670 --> 00:36:03,350 the World Trade Center the in their 702 00:36:09,790 --> 00:36:06,680 vault you know they had a huge stockpile 703 00:36:14,020 --> 00:36:09,800 of ammunition and the ammunition began 704 00:36:16,510 --> 00:36:14,030 to cook off as the fires spread and so 705 00:36:19,380 --> 00:36:16,520 you know the police and first responders 706 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:19,390 at Ground Zero or hearing gunshots Kalaa 707 00:36:23,830 --> 00:36:21,650 and you know they think that they're now 708 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:23,840 under land assault from the you know the 709 00:36:30,430 --> 00:36:26,810 terrorists who are sweeping him after 710 00:36:35,290 --> 00:36:30,440 the crashes from the ground 711 00:36:37,450 --> 00:36:35,300 and you know the AI quotes were a number 712 00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:37,460 of different first responders who sort 713 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:39,440 of all here these gunshots going off and 714 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:41,810 think that they're under some sort of 715 00:36:46,450 --> 00:36:44,690 ground attack yeah we also covered the 716 00:36:49,060 --> 00:36:46,460 Las Vegas shooting in a lot of detail 717 00:36:52,090 --> 00:36:49,070 and it reminds me of that situation as 718 00:36:55,450 --> 00:36:52,100 it turns out conventional thinking is it 719 00:36:57,940 --> 00:36:55,460 was one guy by himself raining this 720 00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:57,950 incredible chaos below if you speak to 721 00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,560 the people who were at that concert nine 722 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:03,200 out of ten will say no way was it one 723 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:05,090 shooter that it was multiple shooters 724 00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:07,010 coming from multiple directions from the 725 00:37:11,890 --> 00:37:09,260 ground this and that because when you're 726 00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:11,900 in that chaotic situation you don't know 727 00:37:14,980 --> 00:37:13,040 that you know the sound of the bullets 728 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:14,990 are echoing off of the the buildings in 729 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:19,090 Vegas and so on and to them it was a 730 00:37:32,260 --> 00:37:28,450 multi-faceted terrorist attack I mean 731 00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:32,270 many mass shootings the first reports is 732 00:37:36,750 --> 00:37:33,910 for multiple gunmen 733 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:36,760 and it you know almost always turns out 734 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:41,530 and one of the tougher chapters of your 735 00:37:48,990 --> 00:37:46,210 book involves the people who jumped how 736 00:37:52,710 --> 00:37:49,000 many people do we do we think actually 737 00:37:55,650 --> 00:37:52,720 had jumped to their death out of the 738 00:37:59,130 --> 00:37:55,660 buildings I don't know that we have a 739 00:38:03,960 --> 00:37:59,140 real solid number you know it's 740 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:03,970 certainly in the dozens and there you 741 00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:06,130 know there's also some it's important to 742 00:38:14,549 --> 00:38:08,740 understand some people spell some people 743 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:14,559 jumped by choice and we don't know you 744 00:38:21,720 --> 00:38:17,010 know what the division between those 745 00:38:24,740 --> 00:38:21,730 categories necessarily is I you know in 746 00:38:28,859 --> 00:38:24,750 the neighborhood of a few a few dozen 747 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:28,869 perhaps 100 Wow and that they were just 748 00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:31,210 in a circumstance where the flames had 749 00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:34,960 reached them and it was either burned to 750 00:38:44,940 --> 00:38:42,250 death or jump yes incredible to imagine 751 00:38:47,339 --> 00:38:44,950 what the circumstances must have been 752 00:38:50,370 --> 00:38:47,349 like for those people who did make a 753 00:38:52,349 --> 00:38:50,380 conscious decision to jump to imagine 754 00:38:56,010 --> 00:38:52,359 that sort of what lay ahead of them was 755 00:38:57,539 --> 00:38:56,020 better than what lay behind them and I 756 00:39:00,750 --> 00:38:57,549 was listening to this part of your book 757 00:39:03,870 --> 00:39:00,760 so correct me if I have it wrong but I 758 00:39:06,390 --> 00:39:03,880 thought what I heard is that one of the 759 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:06,400 jumpers or someone who fell actually 760 00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:20,160 widely accepted first casualty of the 761 00:39:25,650 --> 00:39:22,210 New York City firefighters that day was 762 00:39:27,900 --> 00:39:25,660 firefighter named Danny sure hit by 763 00:39:31,260 --> 00:39:27,910 someone falling or jumping from the 764 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:31,270 tower on the plaza outside the World 765 00:39:38,910 --> 00:39:35,770 Trade Center incredible the orders to 766 00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:38,920 shoot down the plane there's been a lot 767 00:39:47,130 --> 00:39:44,250 of written and talked about those orders 768 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:47,140 ultimately well what walk me through a 769 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:47,770 little bit 770 00:39:50,730 --> 00:39:49,330 they weren't able to get ahold of the 771 00:39:53,850 --> 00:39:50,740 president so they were wanting to get 772 00:39:56,970 --> 00:39:53,860 the vice president to order that it's 773 00:39:58,740 --> 00:39:56,980 okay to shoot ultimately I think the 774 00:40:00,180 --> 00:39:58,750 president does approve it then there's 775 00:40:03,150 --> 00:40:00,190 some controversy as to whether that 776 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:03,160 order was ever actually given because I 777 00:40:09,450 --> 00:40:05,650 know there was some fear that they might 778 00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:09,460 accidentally shoot down a plane that 779 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:10,720 they thought had been hijacked when it 780 00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:12,850 was not so kind of walk us through that 781 00:40:17,970 --> 00:40:15,430 timeline yeah so there's sort of a 782 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:17,980 couple of different points of confusion 783 00:40:26,460 --> 00:40:23,170 around this one is when the first order 784 00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:26,470 to shoot down hijacked airliners comes 785 00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:30,160 in and whether Vice President Cheney 786 00:40:39,870 --> 00:40:34,030 gives the order himself or whether he 787 00:40:42,390 --> 00:40:39,880 had spoken to President Bush or he 788 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:42,400 passed along the order at the White 789 00:40:46,620 --> 00:40:43,930 House and by the way there's an 790 00:40:50,810 --> 00:40:46,630 interesting issue even before you get to 791 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:50,820 that which is who can give such an order 792 00:40:56,580 --> 00:40:54,850 at some point a decision I mean I assume 793 00:40:59,220 --> 00:40:56,590 this isn't written anywhere or maybe it 794 00:41:00,960 --> 00:40:59,230 is protocol for this I guess that would 795 00:41:02,970 --> 00:41:00,970 be a question is there protocol for who 796 00:41:04,620 --> 00:41:02,980 makes that decision you know is it 797 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:04,630 necessarily have to come from the 798 00:41:12,810 --> 00:41:07,090 commander-in-chief or why is a general 799 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:12,820 not sufficient yeah now there are much 800 00:41:19,980 --> 00:41:17,530 more finely tuned but on 9/11 no one 801 00:41:27,420 --> 00:41:19,990 wanted to be the person making that 802 00:41:30,780 --> 00:41:27,430 decision and so what you see that 803 00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:30,790 morning is sort of a series of confusing 804 00:41:37,650 --> 00:41:33,760 remarks or confusing conversations that 805 00:41:42,330 --> 00:41:37,660 take place mostly between 10:00 12:00 806 00:41:46,260 --> 00:41:42,340 a.m. and 1018 a.m. where Vice President 807 00:41:48,420 --> 00:41:46,270 Cheney appears to give the order to the 808 00:41:56,250 --> 00:41:48,430 Pentagon to shoot down further hijacked 809 00:42:01,450 --> 00:41:56,260 airliners and and what to the best of 810 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:01,460 the recollection of the 9/11 Commission 811 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:04,010 he and President Bush don't actually 812 00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:08,450 speak until closer and 20 and so it does 813 00:42:13,839 --> 00:42:10,910 seem like Vice President Cheney gave 814 00:42:16,359 --> 00:42:13,849 that first order unilaterally without 815 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:16,369 speaking to the president now when he 816 00:42:21,970 --> 00:42:17,810 and the President did speech the 817 00:42:23,470 --> 00:42:21,980 president clearly okayed that order so 818 00:42:26,050 --> 00:42:23,480 Vice President Cheney has long 819 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:26,060 maintained that he spoke to the 820 00:42:30,790 --> 00:42:27,650 president and then passed along the 821 00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:30,800 order having gone but that is not backed 822 00:42:34,540 --> 00:42:32,270 up by the evidence that we have 823 00:42:38,170 --> 00:42:34,550 available to us now of course it sort of 824 00:42:40,089 --> 00:42:38,180 ends up being somewhat moot because what 825 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:40,099 we now understand which they did not 826 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:44,290 understand at the time was that fully 827 00:42:51,430 --> 00:42:47,690 the last plane played 9390 Airlines 828 00:42:54,819 --> 00:42:51,440 flight 93 had crashed at 10:03 that 829 00:42:56,859 --> 00:42:54,829 morning there were no further hijacked 830 00:43:00,370 --> 00:42:56,869 airliners in the air that morning and 831 00:43:02,290 --> 00:43:00,380 that clarifies a conspiracy point of the 832 00:43:06,250 --> 00:43:02,300 people who believe that that plane was 833 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:06,260 shot down that the orders that it was 834 00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:09,170 approved to shoot down a plane did not 835 00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:10,730 come until that plane had already 836 00:43:19,890 --> 00:43:17,510 crashed no fighter jets anywhere I 837 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:19,900 didn't play 93 by the time it went down 838 00:43:29,550 --> 00:43:22,730 and that actually Feeney's order does 839 00:43:33,069 --> 00:43:29,560 get transmitted out to fighter jets to 840 00:43:36,390 --> 00:43:33,079 Andrews Air Force Base piloted by 841 00:43:40,690 --> 00:43:36,400 Heather Lucky Penny and Mark sass Ville 842 00:43:42,370 --> 00:43:40,700 of the DC Air National Guard and those 843 00:43:45,550 --> 00:43:42,380 planes aren't actually even airborne 844 00:43:46,990 --> 00:43:45,560 until about 10:30 it is a really really 845 00:43:48,970 --> 00:43:47,000 incredible order though when you really 846 00:43:51,339 --> 00:43:48,980 just stop and think about and just 847 00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:51,349 demonstrates how crazy that day was that 848 00:44:00,460 --> 00:43:55,690 the US military was authorized to kill 849 00:44:03,010 --> 00:44:00,470 Americans yes and and there was actually 850 00:44:06,430 --> 00:44:03,020 very little hesitancy on the part of 851 00:44:09,790 --> 00:44:06,440 either President Bush or Vice President 852 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:09,800 Cheney to give that order thinking was 853 00:44:14,319 --> 00:44:11,690 you know we have to take flies in the 854 00:44:17,169 --> 00:44:14,329 sky and/or save lives on 855 00:44:22,329 --> 00:44:17,179 but that over the course of that morning 856 00:44:25,329 --> 00:44:22,339 what you saw was sort of people who were 857 00:44:26,380 --> 00:44:25,339 with President Bush aboard Air Force One 858 00:44:28,630 --> 00:44:26,390 when he was having that conversation 859 00:44:31,599 --> 00:44:28,640 with Dick Cheney you know he hangs up 860 00:44:33,579 --> 00:44:31,609 that elephone and you know remember t 861 00:44:36,939 --> 00:44:33,589 was a National Guard pilot himself and 862 00:44:39,489 --> 00:44:36,949 so he turned to his aides around him and 863 00:44:42,459 --> 00:44:39,499 said you know III was a pilot I I can't 864 00:44:45,749 --> 00:44:42,469 imagine getting the order and I just II 865 00:44:50,469 --> 00:44:45,759 what that tells me is that at that time 866 00:44:52,959 --> 00:44:50,479 there was no technology such that we 867 00:44:56,439 --> 00:44:52,969 could take over the controls of those 868 00:45:08,370 --> 00:44:56,449 planes that the only option was to shoot 869 00:45:10,179 --> 00:45:08,380 him down yeah it would be I mean what 870 00:45:13,329 --> 00:45:10,189 technologically it's probably possible 871 00:45:14,529 --> 00:45:13,339 whether it's been implemented right it 872 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:14,539 certainly said you know we have drone 873 00:45:19,749 --> 00:45:18,170 planes so these would be drone Jets but 874 00:45:23,949 --> 00:45:19,759 it would seem to me I'm just totally 875 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:23,959 kind of spitballing here but that 876 00:45:28,419 --> 00:45:25,729 theoretically you could have these 877 00:45:30,459 --> 00:45:28,429 planes outfitted in a way that the 878 00:45:33,890 --> 00:45:30,469 controls could be taken over in some 879 00:45:35,099 --> 00:45:33,900 type of an emergency situation like this 880 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:35,109 [Music] 881 00:45:42,489 --> 00:45:39,170 possible you know I think one of the 882 00:45:45,429 --> 00:45:42,499 reasons that has not been happened 883 00:45:47,699 --> 00:45:45,439 already is you know the obvious cyber 884 00:45:50,679 --> 00:45:47,709 vulnerabilities that that would open up 885 00:45:54,449 --> 00:45:50,689 you know that you know a various actors 886 00:45:57,729 --> 00:45:54,459 but also then attempt to game airplane 887 00:45:59,679 --> 00:45:57,739 why is it that Cheney was not able to 888 00:46:04,929 --> 00:45:59,689 speak to Bush for such such an extended 889 00:46:07,449 --> 00:46:04,939 period well so this was this was a major 890 00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:07,459 part of the story of 9/11 these the 891 00:46:11,499 --> 00:46:09,170 technological limitations that the 892 00:46:15,279 --> 00:46:11,509 government was operating on over the 893 00:46:18,039 --> 00:46:15,289 course of the bat day you know this was 894 00:46:19,809 --> 00:46:18,049 2001 it sort of feels like modern times 895 00:46:20,499 --> 00:46:19,819 but technologically it was still the 896 00:46:26,529 --> 00:46:20,509 Stone Age 897 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:26,539 you know Air Force one did not have did 898 00:46:29,980 --> 00:46:28,250 not have satellite hello 899 00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:29,990 capabilities at that point it was still 900 00:46:36,370 --> 00:46:33,680 primarily relying on effectively rabbit 901 00:46:43,630 --> 00:46:36,380 ear TV antennas to pick up TV channels 902 00:46:47,770 --> 00:46:43,640 at the time and then during that 10 n to 903 00:46:55,450 --> 00:46:47,780 10 20 window they were just out of touch 904 00:46:58,600 --> 00:46:55,460 with the land now things that we've 905 00:47:03,640 --> 00:46:58,610 implemented since 9/11 to the bolster 906 00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:03,650 security obviously sees is when they're 907 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:05,090 at the airport and what you had now have 908 00:47:11,350 --> 00:47:09,050 to go through at the airport first let's 909 00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:11,360 touch on that because like you said it 910 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:13,520 was recent times but it was a long ago 911 00:47:19,930 --> 00:47:17,330 times what was in place as far as 912 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:19,940 airport security to get on a plane pre 913 00:47:26,260 --> 00:47:22,570 9/11 and what was implemented post 9/11 914 00:47:27,820 --> 00:47:26,270 so before 9/11 remember it was mostly 915 00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:27,830 private security these were not 916 00:47:33,790 --> 00:47:29,510 government employees these were not 917 00:47:35,110 --> 00:47:33,800 government guards and the range of what 918 00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:35,120 you could bring on board was much 919 00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:38,720 lighter I mean small knives were in fact 920 00:47:45,330 --> 00:47:43,770 exclusively allowed on planes and the 921 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:45,340 [Music] 922 00:47:50,170 --> 00:47:48,770 obviously that changed after 9/11 the 923 00:47:54,550 --> 00:47:50,180 Transportation Security Administration 924 00:47:56,710 --> 00:47:54,560 was created to sort of federalized 925 00:47:59,290 --> 00:47:56,720 airport security and transportation 926 00:48:03,190 --> 00:47:59,300 security across the country and then 927 00:48:08,260 --> 00:48:03,200 after the 2004 al-qaida plot against the 928 00:48:11,260 --> 00:48:08,270 London planes when liquids were banned 929 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:11,270 from coming on fourthly and again that's 930 00:48:15,790 --> 00:48:12,650 sort of one of those things we mostly 931 00:48:18,130 --> 00:48:15,800 take for granted today but you know I 932 00:48:22,780 --> 00:48:18,140 remember flying when I was in college 933 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:22,790 and people bringing you know 20 packs of 934 00:48:33,810 --> 00:48:29,890 beer on the plane in their area yeah and 935 00:48:37,630 --> 00:48:33,820 sorry I lost my train of thought on Oh 936 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:37,640 an observation that I have is that the 937 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:41,330 cabin for the 938 00:48:47,830 --> 00:48:44,330 Pitts for the pilots is still not 939 00:48:50,850 --> 00:48:47,840 particularly secure the old roll the 940 00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:50,860 drink cart in front of the cockpit trick 941 00:48:57,540 --> 00:48:53,510 doesn't seem to be like air tight 942 00:49:01,060 --> 00:48:57,550 security and if you could somehow 943 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:01,070 genuinely secure that cockpit then a lot 944 00:49:07,540 --> 00:49:04,490 of the other security becomes far less 945 00:49:10,810 --> 00:49:07,550 important so it just surprises me that 946 00:49:13,090 --> 00:49:10,820 we don't keep that cockpit absolutely 947 00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:13,100 buttoned down to 100% locked perhaps 948 00:49:16,660 --> 00:49:14,750 even now this would take a somewhat of a 949 00:49:19,570 --> 00:49:16,670 redesign of planes but have that have 950 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:19,580 the pilots enter the cockpit not through 951 00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:21,010 the main cabin they have their own 952 00:49:25,150 --> 00:49:23,510 external door that gets them into the 953 00:49:26,260 --> 00:49:25,160 cockpit and then that is locked and 954 00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:26,270 that's it 955 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:29,510 they're often and they're not coming 956 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:31,370 back there is no way to get into the 957 00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:41,330 cockpit from the cabin you know you know 958 00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:44,480 almost 19 years later and we've never 959 00:49:51,010 --> 00:49:47,930 seen a plot similar like this and that 960 00:49:55,090 --> 00:49:51,020 partly because of the changes made with 961 00:49:58,840 --> 00:49:55,100 ESA and armored cockpit doors such that 962 00:50:00,760 --> 00:49:58,850 they have been upgraded already but then 963 00:50:03,730 --> 00:50:00,770 it's also you know look at United plate 964 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:03,740 93 which is even - by the end of that 965 00:50:11,850 --> 00:50:07,610 morning you know passengers had reacted 966 00:50:17,050 --> 00:50:11,860 in the crew had reacted in real-time to 967 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:17,060 interdict and disrupt the of the 968 00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:19,010 hijackers suits over United flight 93 969 00:50:23,890 --> 00:50:21,920 and so you know I think one of the 970 00:50:26,710 --> 00:50:23,900 reasons you have not seen al-qaeda sort 971 00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:26,720 of pursued a lot further is the 972 00:50:34,030 --> 00:50:30,470 recognition that you know any attempt to 973 00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:34,040 take over a plane today would be not met 974 00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:36,770 with docile passengers and crew yeah 975 00:50:41,470 --> 00:50:39,200 well I really really hate saying this 976 00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:41,480 but I I you know it concerns me a little 977 00:50:46,660 --> 00:50:45,110 bit because it seems like you know like 978 00:50:48,670 --> 00:50:46,670 I said we overreacted then we under 979 00:50:50,260 --> 00:50:48,680 reacted it's a condom the constant 980 00:50:52,450 --> 00:50:50,270 pendulum going back and forth but I 981 00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:52,460 think there's been lots of examples of 982 00:50:58,360 --> 00:50:55,310 things when they've tested current 983 00:51:00,130 --> 00:50:58,370 ese security of it not being as good as 984 00:51:03,610 --> 00:51:00,140 we'd hope input so we all stand in these 985 00:51:05,050 --> 00:51:03,620 long annoying lines but turns out there 986 00:51:07,180 --> 00:51:05,060 are a number of things that can be snuck 987 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:07,190 through there it isn't hard to 988 00:51:12,730 --> 00:51:10,010 manufacture a weapon right they 989 00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:12,740 manufactured them right on the plane on 990 00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:15,710 that United 93 and when that cockpit 991 00:51:22,210 --> 00:51:19,610 door is open and all it is is a female 992 00:51:25,660 --> 00:51:22,220 flight attendants standing in front of a 993 00:51:27,550 --> 00:51:25,670 juice cart that you know someone could 994 00:51:29,590 --> 00:51:27,560 jump into that situation and hop in that 995 00:51:40,020 --> 00:51:29,600 cockpit pretty easily close and lock the 996 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:40,030 door and they're now in control and 997 00:51:47,230 --> 00:51:43,810 there are a lot of sort of prior to that 998 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:47,240 that have been implemented through the 999 00:51:52,630 --> 00:51:48,650 intelligence and law enforcement means 1000 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:52,640 that would they hope interdiction 1001 00:51:58,930 --> 00:51:54,530 disrupt a plot like that sort of or 1002 00:52:01,900 --> 00:51:58,940 upstream as well you know the ability to 1003 00:52:06,730 --> 00:52:01,910 carry out a highly coordinated attack in 1004 00:52:11,290 --> 00:52:06,740 the way that al-qaeda did the 9/11 plot 1005 00:52:14,230 --> 00:52:11,300 a centrally planned and executed was you 1006 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:14,240 know for much better or to the 1007 00:52:19,810 --> 00:52:17,570 indicators of a lot like that today what 1008 00:52:22,420 --> 00:52:19,820 do you know about the I think they call 1009 00:52:23,710 --> 00:52:22,430 them US air marshals that fly on the 1010 00:52:26,530 --> 00:52:23,720 planes that was something else that was 1011 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:26,540 implemented is that still going on and 1012 00:52:29,980 --> 00:52:28,010 do we know to what extent what 1013 00:52:35,620 --> 00:52:29,990 percentage of planes have some type of a 1014 00:52:38,860 --> 00:52:35,630 undercover US Marshal on it this was a 1015 00:52:41,170 --> 00:52:38,870 long-standing operation the the air 1016 00:52:43,210 --> 00:52:41,180 marshals have long you know going back 1017 00:52:48,370 --> 00:52:43,220 into the nineteen seventies there were 1018 00:52:51,250 --> 00:52:48,380 very small number left on 9/11 and it 1019 00:52:59,250 --> 00:52:51,260 was ramped up very quickly after 9/11 1020 00:53:03,120 --> 00:52:59,260 and has sort of largely been you know 1021 00:53:05,590 --> 00:53:03,130 arguably ineffective you know it the the 1022 00:53:08,930 --> 00:53:05,600 percentage of flights that are covered 1023 00:53:13,310 --> 00:53:08,940 by air marshals remains very low 1024 00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:13,320 the air marshals have never furiously 1025 00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:17,090 interdicted a plot as it was unfolding 1026 00:53:23,540 --> 00:53:20,610 but you know it's hard to know sort of 1027 00:53:26,030 --> 00:53:23,550 what deterrent effect it backers of the 1028 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:26,040 program would tell you you know what the 1029 00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:30,690 current activity but if you don't know 1030 00:53:33,609 --> 00:53:32,400 about a cross-country flight LA to New 1031 00:53:38,540 --> 00:53:33,619 York 1032 00:53:43,750 --> 00:53:38,550 50% chance there's one on there the 1033 00:53:46,940 --> 00:53:43,760 technical numbers of the air marshals is 1034 00:53:49,940 --> 00:53:46,950 classified the technical percentage of 1035 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:49,950 plates that is covered is classified but 1036 00:53:58,190 --> 00:53:53,090 I would guess that on an average day 1037 00:53:59,990 --> 00:53:58,200 absence any other intelligence the 1038 00:54:05,330 --> 00:54:00,000 chances of encountering an arrow marks 1039 00:54:08,810 --> 00:54:05,340 are effectively zero what had been laden 1040 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:08,820 planned as an encore to this as far as 1041 00:54:18,530 --> 00:54:16,010 we know I don't know might have been 1042 00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:18,540 what we do know is that they were sort 1043 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:20,810 of another major plot in the fall of 1044 00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:33,810 2000 or the planes in London we're all 1045 00:54:38,420 --> 00:54:35,730 kind of sort of hopes down something 1046 00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:38,430 like a dozen transatlantic airliners all 1047 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:41,280 at once Wow I've forgotten that story 1048 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:44,250 how were they going to down them so that 1049 00:55:01,760 --> 00:54:57,099 we're going to bring on harmless 1050 00:55:05,270 --> 00:55:01,770 harmless liquid that when mixed together 1051 00:55:06,590 --> 00:55:05,280 aboard the plane formed and exploded in 1052 00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:06,600 considering the timing of what's going 1053 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:08,010 on in Afghanistan right now it's a good 1054 00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:11,010 very good time to ask this question do 1055 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:14,880 you buy into the theory that bin Laden's 1056 00:55:21,950 --> 00:55:18,090 objective in that terrorist attack on 1057 00:55:26,390 --> 00:55:21,960 9/11 was to draw the u.s. into a war 1058 00:55:30,140 --> 00:55:26,400 Afghanistan so it's very clear that you 1059 00:55:32,780 --> 00:55:30,150 know bin Laden's had been through the 1060 00:55:35,329 --> 00:55:32,790 1990s sort of raising the stakes of his 1061 00:55:37,180 --> 00:55:35,339 attacks trying to get the u.s. to pay 1062 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:37,190 attention and trying to provoke 1063 00:55:45,770 --> 00:55:39,690 precisely the type of response that he 1064 00:55:49,070 --> 00:55:45,780 ended up after 9/11 so to that extent we 1065 00:55:51,050 --> 00:55:49,080 played right into his hands we responded 1066 00:55:54,500 --> 00:55:51,060 in precisely the way that he anticipates 1067 00:55:56,210 --> 00:55:54,510 and and he hearkened back to the war 1068 00:55:58,609 --> 00:55:56,220 with the Soviets and the Soviets were 1069 00:56:01,760 --> 00:55:58,619 ultimately defeated and that was their 1070 00:56:04,490 --> 00:56:01,770 primary enemy at that time now their 1071 00:56:07,820 --> 00:56:04,500 primary enemy had become the u.s. for a 1072 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:07,830 variety of reasons I guess but so the 1073 00:56:11,410 --> 00:56:09,810 idea was to now have some great victory 1074 00:56:19,579 --> 00:56:11,420 in Afghanistan against the United States 1075 00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:19,589 well it was to provoke the United States 1076 00:56:29,020 --> 00:56:22,770 into a war against Islam and a war 1077 00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:29,030 against Muslim and bush the u.s. 1078 00:56:35,630 --> 00:56:32,160 remember sort of his original complaint 1079 00:56:44,050 --> 00:56:35,640 was the basing of US soldiers in the 1080 00:56:47,829 --> 00:56:44,060 Holy Land in Saudi Arabia around so 1081 00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:47,839 hindsight being 20/20 1082 00:56:52,460 --> 00:56:50,910 what should the us's reaction have been 1083 00:56:54,020 --> 00:56:52,470 in the Middle East what action should we 1084 00:56:58,690 --> 00:56:54,030 take em I mean clearly you can't let al 1085 00:57:07,630 --> 00:56:58,700 Qaeda continue as it was after 9/11 so 1086 00:57:12,980 --> 00:57:11,630 you know I think the clearest is lying 1087 00:57:16,490 --> 00:57:12,990 for playing the hindsight is 1088 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:16,500 twenty-twenty game I think the clearest 1089 00:57:24,050 --> 00:57:19,530 way have been to have taken bin Laden 1090 00:57:26,599 --> 00:57:24,060 more seriously prior to 9/11 and to have 1091 00:57:29,990 --> 00:57:26,609 responded more forcefully to for 1092 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:30,000 instance um you know the the Kenya and 1093 00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:34,090 Tanzania embassy bombings in 1998 where 1094 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:36,640 that sort of unfolded in the midst of 1095 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:39,850 the Clinton impeachment debacle with 1096 00:57:48,150 --> 00:57:44,290 Monica Lewinsky and Clinton fired off 1097 00:57:50,310 --> 00:57:48,160 cruise missiles aimed at targeting bin 1098 00:57:53,220 --> 00:57:50,320 Laden and was criticized as sort of a 1099 00:57:54,930 --> 00:57:53,230 wag the dog phenomenon of attempting to 1100 00:57:58,470 --> 00:57:54,940 distract from his impeachment problem 1101 00:58:03,300 --> 00:57:58,480 but here's kind of a crazy thought but 1102 00:58:06,330 --> 00:58:03,310 by going to Afghanistan didn't that have 1103 00:58:09,210 --> 00:58:06,340 the effect of reducing the terror threat 1104 00:58:13,050 --> 00:58:09,220 in the u.s. in two ways one obviously it 1105 00:58:16,590 --> 00:58:13,060 distracted al-qaeda but two we did what 1106 00:58:17,460 --> 00:58:16,600 about what bin Laden sought out to 1107 00:58:20,130 --> 00:58:17,470 achieve 1108 00:58:21,660 --> 00:58:20,140 drag the u.s. into a war in the Middle 1109 00:58:23,310 --> 00:58:21,670 East so he had already served his 1110 00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:23,320 purpose he didn't need new terrorist 1111 00:58:34,290 --> 00:58:28,720 acts no you remain ambitious about 1112 00:58:40,350 --> 00:58:34,300 carrying on further attacks you know you 1113 00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:40,360 know the last one that we know 2009-2010 1114 00:58:47,070 --> 00:58:44,130 which exact year with Najibullah Zazi x' 1115 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:47,080 attempt to bomb the New York City subway 1116 00:58:52,050 --> 00:58:50,050 and so he was you know long after 9/11 1117 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:52,060 bin Laden was still quite focused on 1118 00:58:56,910 --> 00:58:55,210 further attacks last thing was touched 1119 00:58:59,340 --> 00:58:56,920 on a little bit is just that the Saudi 1120 00:59:02,910 --> 00:58:59,350 connection first of all what can you 1121 00:59:05,370 --> 00:59:02,920 tell us about the story that Saudis that 1122 00:59:08,190 --> 00:59:05,380 were friends of the Bush's etc were able 1123 00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:08,200 to leave the country very bin Laden's in 1124 00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:11,290 fact bin Laden's and/or Saudis left the 1125 00:59:17,610 --> 00:59:14,490 u.s. like the day after the attack 1126 00:59:20,550 --> 00:59:17,620 exactly that happened you know they were 1127 00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:20,560 there were bin Laden family members 1128 00:59:26,910 --> 00:59:24,490 inside the United States were ushered 1129 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:26,920 out of the United States aboard private 1130 00:59:31,350 --> 00:59:29,050 aircraft you know in the hours and days 1131 00:59:38,719 --> 00:59:31,360 after 9/11 now is that because they 1132 00:59:48,630 --> 00:59:45,630 beyond be like I don't actually know huh 1133 00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:48,640 and aren't I correct that just within 1134 00:59:55,170 --> 00:59:51,249 the last year there's been more more 1135 00:59:57,059 --> 00:59:55,180 Saudis deported that we believe may have 1136 01:00:07,019 --> 00:59:57,069 been terrorists that were in flight 1137 01:00:12,719 --> 01:00:07,029 schools well like Air Force Base by a 1138 01:00:16,380 --> 01:00:12,729 Saudi plate student that led to the 1139 01:00:18,089 --> 01:00:16,390 other Saudis who were members of the 1140 01:00:23,370 --> 01:00:18,099 military in training in the United 1141 01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:23,380 States being so I hate to chuckle at 1142 01:00:29,329 --> 01:00:25,690 that but you you have to like be 1143 01:00:32,249 --> 01:00:29,339 bewildered that after all these Saudis 1144 01:00:36,749 --> 01:00:32,259 took flight classes in the US and became 1145 01:00:38,819 --> 01:00:36,759 hijackers and created the worst terror 1146 01:00:41,039 --> 01:00:38,829 event in in US history 1147 01:00:46,589 --> 01:00:41,049 that we still have Saudis in the u.s. 1148 01:00:51,870 --> 01:00:46,599 learning how to fly planes well the the 1149 01:00:58,200 --> 01:00:51,880 relationship and our ally relationship 1150 01:01:01,829 --> 01:00:58,210 with Arabia is and there's no question 1151 01:01:05,489 --> 01:01:01,839 that the Saudis are well aware of this 1152 01:01:08,519 --> 01:01:05,499 terror element in their country have not 1153 01:01:11,700 --> 01:01:08,529 been able to curtail it and in fact in 1154 01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:11,710 order to keep them at bay and to stay in 1155 01:01:19,789 --> 01:01:16,450 power it's believed that they allow it 1156 01:01:25,829 --> 01:01:19,799 to continue if not actually funded 1157 01:01:29,729 --> 01:01:25,839 correct and like you said complicated 1158 01:01:31,769 --> 01:01:29,739 relationship and I think you know again 1159 01:01:33,390 --> 01:01:31,779 when you go back to thinking about a new 1160 01:01:35,999 --> 01:01:33,400 generation of Americans they learned 1161 01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:36,009 about 9/11 you know I think there are a 1162 01:01:40,410 --> 01:01:37,690 lot of people who's now sort of hear the